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PEG Jul 23
In every European country that I’m aware of, it’s a misdemeanor or a felony not to carry ID (implicitly, proof of citizenship) at all times.
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PEG
I very much appreciate America’s libertarian tradition of "ID? What ID?" but the idea that requiring people to be able to show ID is some fascistic departure from widely-accepted democratic norms is unreal (and very provincial).
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MementoMāori 💀 Jul 23
Replying to @pegobry
But ID is racist...
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Josh Barro Jul 23
Replying to @pegobry
There are a lot of things that are routinely done in Europe that Americans blanch at and I thought that was one of the things you liked about America.
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PEG Jul 23
Replying to @pegobry
I know you guys had huge raucuous debates about National ID, but don’t you have them by now? In any case, the Anglo-American tradition is distinctive, but plenty of countries have functioning liberal democracies with different norms.
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PEG Jul 23
Replying to @jbarro
I don’t have a strong view either way, I’m just making a churlish point about progressive hypocrisy—suddenly what Europe does doesn’t matter and American exceptionalism is great.
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Neil Jul 23
Replying to @pegobry
You need to carry ID for a run? A short walk to the store?
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PEG Jul 23
Replying to @jbarro
I guess: it might be healthier in the abstract to have a culture where people aren’t required to carry ID, but if you believe that citizenship is a real thing *and* you have (let’s say!) a massive illegal immigration problem, the idea that requiring ID is Mussolini is ridiculous.
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el gaffer Jul 23
Replying to @pegobry
Nope, New Labour tried but it was a political and bureaucratic mess and scrapped by coalition govt. Agree with your general point though. I think another example is Germans prefer using cash, but don't think Swedes are on a road to fascism because they're almost cashless
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John Carney Jul 23
Replying to @pegobry @jbarro
Correct. I would prefer we do all our immigration enforcement at the border so that we require almost no internal policing (taxes should work that way too!). But if we can't do border, we'll have to do internal policing.
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Kal Lis Jul 23
Replying to @pegobry
If not wanting to carry an ID is provincial, what do Europeans consider legally carrying a concealed weapon without a permit?
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PEG Jul 23
Replying to @pegobry
Thanks for the update. I lost track of the UK National ID debate at some point in the aughts.
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Lou Garrulous Jul 23
Replying to @pegobry @jbarro
In the abstract, agree. And if we were reasonably confident that people of all stripes would be asked for their proof of citizenship then def no problem. I'd be surprised, though, if a policy like this didn't target almost exclusively non-whites.
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T. Rev Jul 23
Replying to @pegobry
This is because America has a rich tradition of being extremely upset if *everyone* is able to have something, while also punishing those who don’t have it, and ID would be no exception.
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T. Rev Jul 23
Replying to @pegobry
Also, one might be concerned that authorities would use, er, “discretion” to primarily ask some people for ID but not others. If you have even a cursory familiarity with the US, it’s possible to guess which ones.
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David Coughlin Jul 23
Replying to @pegobry
Do you have to pay for your papers? Do you get identification from local Departments that are valid substitutes for national citizenship documents?
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Jeffrey Sachs Jul 23
Replying to @pegobry @jbarro
Seems like the mark of a mature political movement that it is able to pick and choose what policies to support and not simply embrace them all because they’re European.
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Clint Barton Jul 23
Replying to @pegobry
Careful. Sounds like you’re volunteering to be locked up without a trial, friend.
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Zach Neeley Jul 23
Replying to @pegobry
In what way do you appreciate that tradition if you support not being able to vote and facing the threat of being dragged away by immigration police if you don’t have ID?
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