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Erik Bootsma Jan 10
Perhaps so, I wasn't going back to the OP, but replying to the joke about Spong... I do think has been really good, considering where he's at.
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Adrian Vermeule
I’ve lost track of what the discussion is even about at this point. Pius IX’s actions were valid, so it seems to be about whether to say so publicly.
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Michael Brendan Dougherty Jan 10
I have no problem affirming that canon law justifies him. Go into a chancery sometime and see what canon law justifies! The original question is whether they were wise, prudent, and just.
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Gʀᴀʏ Cᴏɴɴᴏʟʟʏ Jan 10
To be clear: I think Pius IX got a lot of unpopular issues right. I think Ross is a good writer. I think, most of all, it is a major error to believe the Faith & this Papacy will have to reconcile itself to the transitory idiocies of Western esp American liberalism
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Michael Brendan Dougherty Jan 10
It was others who decided to derail the discussion by implying that any questions of the latter must come from a personal defect, like cowardice or temporizing.
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JD Flynn Jan 10
What are the things “justified” by canon law you find problematic? Can you name them, please, rather than vaguely impugning the Church’s legal system?
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Michael Brendan Dougherty Jan 10
I’m not impugning the system. I’m implying the obvious, that bishops often make tremendously unjust or unwise decisions that are nonetheless completely justified by canon law. That canon law is also abused in annulments is uncontroversial, I thought.
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Adrian Vermeule Jan 10
I haven’t heard a concrete, feasible alternative in the Mortara Case for executing the duty to provide a Catholic education.
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JD Flynn Jan 10
It’s more controversial than you think. Most of the tropes about annulments are no longer true. Besides, they represent disobedience to the law, not the law itself. Your first point is well taken. Thanks for the clarity.
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JD Flynn Jan 10
For example, there may be bishops who are negligent in ensuring that the baptized are formed in the faith, even without technically violating canon law.
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Stefano Gennarini Jan 10
Really? I am sympathetic to Pius. But Mortara lived in a community of a paltry 200 Jews in a Catholic University City, in the Papal States. Was there really no alternative? Did Pius even consider an alternative? These are Legitimate questions I’d like to see someone answer.
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JD Flynn Jan 10
We have all conceded that there may have been an alternative. We have said only that we are not aware of one.
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Adrian Vermeule Jan 10
I mean, I’m open to hearing them, but what? The parents were opposed to any Catholic education, no?
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Stefano Gennarini Jan 10
Right. Missed that. Sorry.
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Stefano Gennarini Jan 10
Yes. But I have a huge knowledge gap here. I am going to scour for more info. I just find it highly implausible that there could be no way to catechize the child without respecting parental prerogatives. Blessed Pius must have had his hands tied in some way.
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